Membership not Required at MCA National Shows!

[390pony]

Yes we had several training sessions in the 24 months preceding the show that were conducted by Gold Card judges. We had no way of knowing that MCA would make such a stupid error as to discontinue a process before the new process was in place. However no certification process = not a certified judge. Doesn't matter if you are trained. How would we have them "ready for the show" if MCA had no way to certify them?

It absolutely does matter that they are trained. The certification process is only an openbook test. I know, because I was the test administrator. Essentially, it still is. A member can become a knowledgeable judge simply by studying the various reference books that are available, reviewing MCA judging sheets, working with other judges, and practicing judging. The MCA judging sheets are very self-explanatory and very easy to follow when judging. Any questions that may arise when judging can be brought to the attention of an assistant national head judge at a show.

Before our club's National in 1998, we did just that. We had no Gold Card judges to guide or train us, but several of us were certified judges and had been judging for several years prior to becoming certified. We held several sessions with our members and practiced judging cars. We always did ours at picnics. Offer free food, and members will attend!

[FastDad]

trying paying directly for insurance to cover a show and then complain the host club received no value.

I would tell you that, as someone who spent a great deal of personal time working on the 2011 Grand National, that any local club that hosts a National or Grand National has a lot more personal "skin in the game" and financial risk than the national organization. In the 2 years that preceded the event, we would ask MCA for guidance on issues and have to ask the same questions repeatedly before we would get straightforward answers. I can tell you that we did not feel like MCA was giving us the kind of support (technical, not financial) that we needed to get things done efficiently. This was very frustrating since we all know that a Grand National is held every year and one would think that the National organization should have the answers to basic questions.

This however is a moot point as, with the current rule in place, it's doubtful that our club will ever put on another National-level MCA event. We need the support of our non-MCA members and with this this rule in place, we won't get it.

[FastDad]

It absolutely does matter that they are trained. The certification process is only an openbook test. I know, because I was the test administrator. Essentially, it still is. A member can become a knowledgeable judge simply by studying the various reference books that are available, reviewing MCA judging sheets, working with other judges, and practicing judging.

There was no testing for at least 12 months preceding the 2011 GN. MCA stopped the paper test and did not get the online test up and running until recently. If you don't believe me, go to http://www.mustang.org/showthread.ph...cation-Testing and check for yourself. Also in multiple threads in the "judging" forum, folks alluded to the lack of testing as a reason for the shortage of judges at shows in 2011.

[jacostang]

Other than Copperstate, the other clubs are not MCA clubs, so how are they relevant to the discussion?

Let me give you a little history about SAMC. Around 1988, when I was the President of SAMC, several people suggested that we become an MCA-chartered club. I put it up for discussion and a vote, and there was a very strong, derisive reaction against doing so. Furthermore, in 1990, after a group of us split from SAMC and formed our own club, Old Pueblo Mustang Club, our club was blackballed by SAMC and to this day, it is a very rare occurrence for any of their members to attend our annual Regional MCA show. Why would the members of that club care what MCA does when they won't attend a local MCA show that doesn't require MCA membership?

I'd also like to ask a question. How many of you who are against the new rule are Certified or Gold Card judges? I've been judging at MCA Nationals/Grand Nationals since 1998 when Old Pueblo held the first National MCA Show in Arizona. I also administer the judges database and can tell you that the numbers of judges are decreasing, not increasing. I just culled the database of any judge that hasn't judged in the last three years. That reduced the database by more than 50 percent! Of course, I also maintain a complete database so that if anyone who was dropped happens to judge again, their information is intact and they can be added back to the active list.

How many have you judged in recent years at Nationals or Grand Nationals? I don't mean work as a scribe, I mean actually judge. So, you want everyone and their uncle to be eligible to be judged at a National/Grand National. Sorry, but we don't have the volunteers to do it. The shows are getting larger, and the judges are getting fewer. I have judged as many as eight Modified cars by myself at a Grand National and four concours cars at a National, also by myself. I am a dual Gold Card judge. That was in addition to trailering 1,000+ miles by myself to the show, and prepping my Conservator car at the show. Can you imagine how tired I was by the end of show and I still had to go another 1,000+ miles to get back home.

The numbers of OD and DD cars at these shows are increasing exponentially. We cannot continue to judge all of these cars, much less the concours and modified classes. These are MCA shows, and restricting the JUDGED cars to MCA members was a necessary step. We are not excluding non-MCA members from our shows, only from the judged classes. Either we restrict who can enter judged classes, or we restrict the numbers of entrants to the shows. I support the former, and not the latter choice.

Point taken on the rift that caused the split within SAMC, And its sad that it remains that way today all those Mustang famlies in Tucson and Phoenix? How many Mustangs were at the last Old Pueblo Show this past spring?
IMO it should bring hundreds of Mustangs but the interest just isnt there.. Why? What can we do do improve the status of the MCA here in the west? This is not going to help...

Do you really think this new rule will help bring more non MCA Members to the shows?
If we dont have enough judges for a show then the local club has to train them like we did for our MCA Show a few years ago.I just think that limiting people to only Popular/Peoples choice will push entries away. Our normal shows only cost about $25 for entry but the MCA Show was $45 for non MCA Members and $35 for MCA Members. I know we had many folks sign up for MCA also.

[390pony]

Point taken on the rift that caused the split within SAMC, And its sad that it remains that way today all those Mustang famlies in Tucson and Phoenix? How many Mustangs were at the last Old Pueblo Show this past spring?
IMO it should bring hundreds of Mustangs but the interest just isnt there.. Why? What can we do do improve the status of the MCA here in the west? This is not going to help...

Do you really think this new rule will help bring more non MCA Members to the shows?
If we dont have enough judges for a show then the local club has to train them like we did for our MCA Show a few years ago.I just think that limiting people to only Popular/Peoples choice will push entries away. Our normal shows only cost about $25 for entry but the MCA Show was $45 for non MCA Members and $35 for MCA Members. I know we had many folks sign up for MCA also.

This year, we had 47 cars at our show. However, we were in competition with about five other activities in Tucson. We typically average about 60 cars, although one year we had more than 100. I don't think the attitude that prevailed at SAMC in the late 1980s regarding MCA has changed. There isn't a lot of interest in MCA in Arizona, partially because of the lack of shows. Back east, people can get to a national in a much shorter time than we can out here. Even putting shows in California doesn't help us much. I'm headed to Concord next week, and it's still a two-day drive for me.

[jacostang]

This year, we had 47 cars at our show. However, we were in competition with about five other activities in Tucson. We typically average about 60 cars, although one year we had more than 100. I don't think the attitude that prevailed at SAMC in the late 1980s regarding MCA has changed. There isn't a lot of interest in MCA in Arizona, partially because of the lack of shows. Back east, people can get to a national in a much shorter time than we can out here. Even putting shows in California doesn't help us much. I'm headed to Concord next week, and it's still a two-day drive for me.

Wow, So how do we change this? I know we can do better. The MCA show we did a few years ago was great, 200+ Mustangs. I know it was a one time gig but we need to grow the MCA here in AZ....

[Mustang 3]

Wow, So how do we change this? I know we can do better. The MCA show we did a few years ago was great, 200+ Mustangs. I know it was a one time gig but we need to grow the MCA here in AZ....

The West is tough. It will take time..one of my reasons for wanting 1 50th or split weekends. MCA style judging is not the norm at Calif shows... CA shows tend to attract lots of newer cars and the classics that do show are often highly modified (restomods)...classic cars trailered in are rare.

Part of me wonders if MCA is trying to do "2 things"....Club for all Mustangs and pure breed judging for the show types. Let me explain...lets take another car. The Corvette. MOST of their shows are not judged...most owners go for fun and fun runs. They have a Museum (National Corvette Museum) that many activities are built around it (that and American LeMans Racing). It is the "social" aspect of a "club" or local clubs.

There is also a second, major and actually much older, organization. NCRS. National Corvette Restorers Society (do not belong, never attended a function so I may have the name slightly off). That group deals with one major focus--detailed info on restoring Corvettes, Judging and showing them (probably a year cut off, I have no clue what it is). Like MCA they have various classics and a points system for a car to become Gold or whatever... If you have a classic 63 and want it resotred and judged to showroom stock condition those are the folks to talk to and be judged by. Want to put together a 3 day drive and show with new 2012 Corvettes, not the group to talk to.

I see MCA as trying to cover both those areas in with one group and that is tough. I really enjoy the magazine (sorry but for a club magazine I consider it fine and appreciate the coverage of newer cars but I see many 1st generation types upset over that direction).

MCA needs to do more then just deliver Judging Standards. It needs to get more involved in fun shows...driving runs...etc to entice folks to join. Didn't know about the Sturgis vs National Conflict. Great for the Board to skip a regional show for Sturgis but a Grand National. The club (MCA) needs to be very involved in Grand Nationals. I gotta question that idea. If your on the Board for a year or two--especially as a named officer then you gotta commit to the National-just part of the job. And yes I fully understand it is a volunteer organization.

MCA needs to give reasons for a GT500 owner at age 33 who ins't interested in a Gold Standard trophy to join and participate in the organization. Oh, getting more involved with Ford and the XPlan..vey smart move!

As to the whole judge thing--havne;'t givne it much thought as I run newer cars and go to shows for a social activity not a trophy.

Hmmm Non MCA folks- join an MCA Club (but not MCA-don't see "what is in it for them" for $50 as many have told me) but they want to attend an MCA National Show and see their car judged by MCA standards for bragging rights (standards developed by folks joining MCA, payiing MCA dues for years on end and putting in a great amount of time to "learn" and develop standards as well as attend shows on their own dime to judge aka work at shows)... that just seems a bit off for me.

I guess I'm at a split. Show costs X...MCA members get MCA style judging (subject to entry limits if available judge numbers are limited)... but non-members who want to test the waters of MCA judging..fine but for a slight fee ...not a full yr of dues but make it $20 per car, so they udnerstnad they are not getting something for free that has no real value. If they pay for it they udnerstand value (time and expense of the judges) is involved. You don't want to pay the dues but you want all the benefits (aka the world is all about me attitude)...that just does't work with me.

Remember a single show entry fee doesn't come close to matching the dues paid for years on end, work, time ect put in by those Judges...you expect the Judges to have spent all that time and money to develop their knowledge and skills and then you come along expecting a benefit for a mere show fee that everyone else pays ....nope.

crap--now I'm feeling real guilty in not checking off the box on my Concord registration to assist in some fashion. Gotta email the Concord Club and put my body where my mouth is.

[gtpony94]

Just for the record, there was one MCA BOD at the Sturgis event. He lives in Jefferson City MO. He did not plan to attend the GN in Waldorf and offered to go to Sturgis to represent the MCA. He did so at his own expense. There were two other BODs that had planned to attend Sturgis. One lives in Long Beach California and the other in Washington State. They both cancelled attending for personal reasons. Once again as I've stated on numerous occasions, MCA did not short change Waldorf in order to support Sturgis, nor do we short change any National event to promote MCA at non-National events.

The Sturgis Club (also an MCA Regional club) has been holding the Sturgis Mustang Rally on Labor Day Weekend for a number of years, but all of a sudden it is a detriment to the GN. One BOD attending the Sturgis Mustang Rally to promote MCA did not distract from or result in a negative impact on the GN in Waldorf. As for vendors not attending the GN because of Sturgis, there was only one that I was aware of (Ford Merchandise Trailer which is not owned by Ford but rather an independent businessman) and he attended Sturgis because, and I quote, "Sturgis is my largest revenue event each year". That was the response he gave me when I asked if he was going to the GN in 2011. MCA has no control over where a particular vendor goes to make his money.

[FastDad]

Just for the record, there was one MCA BOD at the Sturgis event. He lives in Jefferson City MO. He did not plan to attend the GN in Waldorf and offered to go to Sturgis to represent the MCA. He did so at his own expense. There were two other BODs that had planned to attend Sturgis. One lives in Long Beach California and the other in Washington State. They both cancelled attending for personal reasons. Once again as I've stated on numerous occasions, MCA did not short change Waldorf in order to support Sturgis, nor do we short change any National event to promote MCA at non-National events.

The Sturgis Club (also an MCA Regional club) has been holding the Sturgis Mustang Rally on Labor Day Weekend for a number of years, but all of a sudden it is a detriment to the GN. One BOD attending the Sturgis Mustang Rally to promote MCA did not distract from or result in a negative impact on the GN in Waldorf. As for vendors not attending the GN because of Sturgis, there was only one that I was aware of (Ford Merchandise Trailer which is not owned by Ford but rather an independent businessman) and he attended Sturgis because, and I quote, "Sturgis is my largest revenue event each year". That was the response he gave me when I asked if he was going to the GN in 2011. MCA has no control over where a particular vendor goes to make his money.

Just for the record, there were NONE of the larger Mustang-related vendors at the GN (Saleen (aka SMS), Shelby, Roush, etc) and it was not because we did not invite them. The ones that did reply to our inquiries indicated that they were going to Sturgis. I can well imagine that the two 50th celebrations will present a similar choice for those large vendors.

Since we have your attention Steve, why do we deliberately schedule our events to conflict with other major events? You say that the Sturgis event has happened for several years. If so, then why do we schedule our Grand National for the same weekend? Why have we scheduled the 50th Anniversary to conflict with Easter? Why does MCA force people to make a choice between other events or our events and, in the case of the 50th, between our event and family/religious obligations?

[mustangted1963]

I was disapointed the size of the 2010 GN seemed no larger than the MCA regionals that i have attended.And i can understnd why the major venders arent excited about traveling a day or more to attend a show with only a few hundred cars.